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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:18 am 
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faithfulservant wrote:
kage_ar wrote:
I'm quite fond of my new graven image - Papa Smurf :)


:heart: :heart: :heart: :cloud9:

If faithfulservant held his breath long enough, would you be able to tell him from Papa Smurf? :scratch:

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:20 am 
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i would imagine so... i have quite a bit more girth than smurf ::):

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:22 am 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
faithfulservant wrote:
kage_ar wrote:
I'm quite fond of my new graven image - Papa Smurf :)


:heart: :heart: :heart: :cloud9:

If faithfulservant held his breath long enough, would you be able to tell him from Papa Smurf? :scratch:


Can we test it and see :?: :?: :?:

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:26 am 
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AustinS wrote:
I am trying to learn about the Roman Catholic Church in some of my free time and one of the things I've noticed is that there are a lot of what God
labels as "graven images".

Exodus 20:4 KJV
"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

I am wondering how the RCC makes peace/gets around with this key commandment that God gave to Moses on Mt. Sinai?

Thank you
-Austin


5 chapters later, God tells Moses to build statues of angels:
Quote:
“The LORD said to Moses . . . you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be. . . . There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are upon the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you of all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel” (Exodus 25:1, 18-20, 22; cf. 26:1).


So, which is it? Don't make a graven image, or it's o.k. to build statues. The key is purpose. If we worshiped the statue, or the angel, that would be wrong. However they are reminders of the sacred.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:38 am 
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I have met quite a few people, mostly Calvinists, who claim that the prohibition against graven images is a separate commandment, because it contains an imperative. The problem with that is that the Bible states quite explicitly that the Decalogue had exactly ten words/commandments (I think it's in Numbers, IIRC) an yet there are fourteen imperatives in the text.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:42 am 
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anawim wrote:
... So, which is it? Don't make a graven image, or it's o.k. to build statues. The key is purpose.
If we worshiped the statue, or the angel, that would be wrong. However they are reminders of the sacred.

It's only okay at Christmas time - when the nativity scenes come out. :)

(which I now see kage has mentioned on pg 1)

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:50 am 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
I have met quite a few people, mostly Calvinists, who claim that the prohibition against graven images is a separate commandment, because it contains an imperative. The problem with that is that the Bible states quite explicitly that the Decalogue had exactly ten words/commandments (I think it's in Numbers, IIRC) an yet there are fourteen imperatives in the text.

It's in several places. If you want to make things more complicated, many Jews think that "I am the Lord your God," which we regard as a preface, is the first commandment.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:52 am 
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kage_ar wrote:
When I pass by the gorgeous nativity scenes outside of non-Catholic churches... and I see the shepherds and angels I think it is really cool that their statues are worshipping other statues!!

That also works with Fatima and Lourdes sets :)

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:51 pm 
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kage_ar wrote:
Mrs. Timmy wrote:
faithfulservant wrote:
kage_ar wrote:
I'm quite fond of my new graven image - Papa Smurf :)


:heart: :heart: :heart: :cloud9:

If faithfulservant held his breath long enough, would you be able to tell him from Papa Smurf? :scratch:


Can we test it and see :?: :?: :?:


:P :P :P :P :P :P :P

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:25 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Closet Catholic wrote:
I have met quite a few people, mostly Calvinists, who claim that the prohibition against graven images is a separate commandment, because it contains an imperative. The problem with that is that the Bible states quite explicitly that the Decalogue had exactly ten words/commandments (I think it's in Numbers, IIRC) an yet there are fourteen imperatives in the text.

It's in several places. If you want to make things more complicated, many Jews think that "I am the Lord your God," which we regard as a preface, is the first commandment.
Yes, and they say that the prohibition against images is part of what they deem the second commandment; "You shall have no other gods before me."

This is also the version in the Talmud.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:01 am 
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AustinS wrote:
I am trying to learn about the Roman Catholic Church in some of my free time and one of the things I've noticed is that there are a lot of what God
labels as "graven images".

Exodus 20:4 KJV
"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

I am wondering how the RCC makes peace/gets around with this key commandment that God gave to Moses on Mt. Sinai?

Thank you
-Austin


That is the point that I usually ask them to take out their wallet and show me any pictures of their spouse or their kids. "Oh, it doesn't mean those" kind of images!" "It just means religious stuff." "It just means images in churches!"

Oh? And where does your Bible specifically say, "religious stuff or churches"? It does say that we are not to worship other gods, to serve other deities, so we Catholics are safe on that. We worship only the One, Triune God, but besides that fact, they are trying to play fast and loose with their insistence on biblical fundamentalism. You can't insist on applying a legalistic standard to Exodus 20:5 in order to try to "catch" Catholics, (Which as I pointed out, simply doesn't work.), but then insist on excusing all those images that one has, (kids pictures, family albums, illustrated KJV bibles, pictures of Jesus, Christmas decorations, every single illustration in any book they have ever owned, every picture they have ever taken, every single piece of art ever created by man for thousands of years, etc.), that are quite clearly prohibited in Ex. 20:4, which the same legalistic approach states unequivocally, "ANY likeness of ANY thing".

In the end, as Doom pointed out, their concern has absolutely ZERO to do with literal reading of Exodus 20 and absolutely EVERYTHING to do with, "What did pastor Bob say we should ask those devil Catholics in order to catch them!?!" ::):

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:17 am 
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Desertfalcon wrote:
AustinS wrote:
I am trying to learn about the Roman Catholic Church in some of my free time and one of the things I've noticed is that there are a lot of what God
labels as "graven images".

Exodus 20:4 KJV
"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

I am wondering how the RCC makes peace/gets around with this key commandment that God gave to Moses on Mt. Sinai?

Thank you
-Austin


That is the point that I usually ask them to take out their wallet and show me any pictures of their spouse or their kids. "Oh, it doesn't mean those" kind of images!" "It just means religious stuff." "It just means images in churches!"

Oh? And where does your Bible specifically say, "religious stuff or churches"? It does say that we are not to worship other gods, to serve other deities, so we Catholics are safe on that. We worship only the One, Triune God, but besides that fact, they are trying to play fast and loose with their insistence on biblical fundamentalism. You can't insist on applying a legalistic standard to Exodus 20:5 in order to try to "catch" Catholics, (Which as I pointed out, simply doesn't work.), but then insist on excusing all those images that one has, (kids pictures, family albums, illustrated KJV bibles, pictures of Jesus, Christmas decorations, every single illustration in any book they have ever owned, every picture they have ever taken, every single piece of art ever created by man for thousands of years, etc.), that are quite clearly prohibited in Ex. 20:4, which the same legalistic approach states unequivocally, "ANY likeness of ANY thing".

In the end, as Doom pointed out, their concern has absolutely ZERO to do with literal reading of Exodus 20 and absolutely EVERYTHING to do with, "What did pastor Bob say we should ask those devil Catholics in order to catch them!?!" ::):


As I said, it's sort of cute, in a naive and unsophisticated manner.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:57 am 
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If the statue is cast or molded rather than graven, does the prohibition still apply?

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:08 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
If the statue is cast or molded rather than graven, does the prohibition still apply?



Or if a likeness is done with engraved printing, is it more so than offset?

I have actually had these sorts of discussions with the little lambs.

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Last edited by GKC on Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:09 pm 
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What about 3-D printers? Where do they come in?

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:11 pm 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
What about 3-D printers? Where do they come in?



The ones I've seen come in the Barnes and Noble store.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:12 pm 
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GKC wrote:
Mrs. Timmy wrote:
What about 3-D printers? Where do they come in?


The ones I've seen come in the Barnes and Noble store.


Ask a stupid question.... :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:17 pm 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
GKC wrote:
Mrs. Timmy wrote:
What about 3-D printers? Where do they come in?


The ones I've seen come in the Barnes and Noble store.


Ask a stupid question.... :roll:


:mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:21 pm 
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Dang it, I just can't stay mad when you give me that $#!+ -eating grin of yours. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:16 pm 
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GKC wrote:
:mrgreen:

:mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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