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 Post subject: Baptism and Communion
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:56 pm 
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If someone try's to be faithful to God everyday and prays every day. Goes to church almost every week, try's too be a good person, but is not baptized or doesn't receive communion, wil will they be denied heaven?


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 Post subject: Re: Baptism and Communion
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:02 pm 
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That's up to God, not us. He has the only say in the matter, and has yet to ask our opinion. :fyi:

Having said that, though, if one is trying to be faithful to God, why wouldn't he/she seek baptism? :scratch:

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 Post subject: Re: Baptism and Communion
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:38 pm 
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He will be denied heaven. He is going to hell.


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 Post subject: Re: Baptism and Communion
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:01 pm 
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The New Testament clearly teaches that baptism is necessary for salvation.

St. Peter compares baptism to Noah's Ark and states very clearly that 'baptism now saves us', and in the book of Acts, he says 'he who believes and is baptized will be saved'.


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 Post subject: Re: Baptism and Communion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:16 am 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
if one is trying to be faithful to God, why wouldn't he/she seek baptism? :scratch:

This

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 Post subject: Re: Baptism and Communion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:58 pm 
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beng wrote:
He will be denied heaven. He is going to hell.


Thankfully, neither you nor I sit on that committee.

Judging souls is left to God alone.

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 Post subject: Re: Baptism and Communion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:23 pm 
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kage_ar wrote:
beng wrote:
He will be denied heaven. He is going to hell.


Thankfully, neither you nor I sit on that committee.

Judging souls is left to God alone.


And yet we have been told HOW God makes those judgments, haven't we? And one of the things we know is that baptism is necessary, he told us this explicitly. Let's not let a misguided concern for 'charity' lead us to imply that when God said that we must be baptized to be saved, that he didn't really mean it.


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 Post subject: Re: Baptism and Communion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:45 pm 
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Let's be clear, then:

The teaching of the Church is that those who die without sanctifying grace do not go to Heaven. The initial gift of sanctifying grace is normally received by baptism, but martyrdom also suffices. The question at hand is whether so-called "Baptism of Desire" exists, and, if so, what qualifies.

As far as I can tell, one may hold that BoD does not exist without incurring theological censure, but one may hold that it does as well. That it exists in the case of catechumens preparing for baptism is strongly attested by the fact that they are allowed full Catholic funeral rites. Whether it can exist in a person who is making no movement towards baptism is the heart of the question. Is an implicit desire--the person would be baptized if he knew the necessity--sufficient? The answer is far from clear.

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 Post subject: Re: Baptism and Communion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:55 pm 
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Let's be clear, then...The answer is far from clear.


You said a mouthful, Father! :salut:

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 Post subject: Re: Baptism and Communion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:58 pm 
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I need a nap :fyi: :sleep:

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 Post subject: Re: Baptism and Communion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:58 pm 
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I need a puppy :fyi:


FTFY

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 Post subject: Re: Baptism and Communion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:58 pm 
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Doom wrote:
kage_ar wrote:
beng wrote:
He will be denied heaven. He is going to hell.


Thankfully, neither you nor I sit on that committee.

Judging souls is left to God alone.


And yet we have been told HOW God makes those judgments, haven't we? And one of the things we know is that baptism is necessary, he told us this explicitly. Let's not let a misguided concern for 'charity' lead us to imply that when God said that we must be baptized to be saved, that he didn't really mean it.


When He said "judge not lest ye be judged" He was speaking of the judgement of souls.

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 Post subject: Re: Baptism and Communion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:27 pm 
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kage_ar wrote:
When He said "judge not lest ye be judged" He was speaking of the judgement of souls.


And you just quoted the most frequently misquoted verse of scripture, one that I have seen used to justify everything from partial birth abortion to gay marriage.

Let's remember what He ACTUALLY said

"Judge not lest ye be judged, for you will be judged in the same way that you judge others, and the measure by which you measure will be measured back to you"

In other words, you should be careful about criticizing others because everyone will immediately be used against you by others the moment you fail to toe the moral line with anything less than absolute perfection.

This is advice about interpersonal relations, if you criticize other people, you better make sure you aren't guilty of the very same things yourself, otherwise everyone will laugh at you.

This has nothing to do with 'the judgment of souls'. Indeed, taken to an extreme, your position leads to the denial of the existence of hell.


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 Post subject: Re: Baptism and Communion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:36 pm 
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I disagree that it is about personal relationships, at least not primarily.

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 Post subject: Re: Baptism and Communion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:12 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I disagree that it is about personal relationships, at least not primarily.

The entire discussion in which that dictum is contained in the context of interpersonal relationships. The next thing he says after the part I quoted is the parable of the mote and beam, which again, is a warning about how to behave towards others i.e. don't criticize the minor faults of others if you have a gigantic glaring fault of your own, but this, of course, is really just an illustration of the warning about 'the measure by which you measure will be measured back to you', and isn't really a new point.


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 Post subject: Re: Baptism and Communion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:15 pm 
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And how many years of seminary did you complete, Doom? :scratch:

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 Post subject: Re: Baptism and Communion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:06 pm 
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The point of all of it is that God will treat us the way we treat others.

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 Post subject: Re: Baptism and Communion
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:58 am 
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kage_ar wrote:
beng wrote:
He will be denied heaven. He is going to hell.


Thankfully, neither you nor I sit on that committee.

Judging souls is left to God alone.


Is that a "don't judge" response? :D


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 Post subject: Re: Baptism and Communion
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:09 am 
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beng wrote:
He will be denied heaven. He is going to hell.


:).

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 Post subject: Re: Baptism and Communion
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:00 am 
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beng wrote:
kage_ar wrote:
beng wrote:
He will be denied heaven. He is going to hell.


Thankfully, neither you nor I sit on that committee.

Judging souls is left to God alone.


Is that a "don't judge" response? :D


It is a we are not given the power nor the wisdom to judge souls.

We can judge actions and we can advise, but, in the end it is God's call.

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