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 Post subject: Sounds like Trent Horn did well against James White
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:24 am 
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Journeyman
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I haven't watched the debate yet. But from reviews that aren't even Catholic it sounds like many feel Horn did the better job in the debate.

I've heard White's name mentioned as quite a formidable opponent of Catholicism.

I haven't seen too many of his debates. But, I did think that Robert Sungenis did a great job against White. But, I could easily see people be turned off from Sungenis's tone.... I however liked it.

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 Post subject: Re: Sounds like Trent Horn did well against James White
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:14 pm 
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James White may be a good debater, but that is not because of the quality of his arguments, it is because he tends to be obnoxious during debates, interrupting, talking over his opponent, always trying to get the last word, he can be very aggressive and confrontational and tends to harp on minor points raised by his opponent. In short, James White handles debates the same way that politicians do at a political debate. This is literally the exact opposite of wining the debate by making the stronger arguments.

I've never found James White's argument to be particularly persuasive, they tend to be based on fundamental misunderstandings of the Catholic position, he quotes the Church Fathers and even the Doctors of the Church in a misleading way, trying to make it seem like they help to positions that they didn't hold.

And, while he may quote an Augustine or an Origen to suggest that they believed in Sola Fide or Sola Scriptura, but then he ignores the fact that they also held positions that are completely contrary to White's Reformed theology, such as the perpetual virginity of Mary, the Mass as a sacrifice or the importance of apostolic succession.

And I have noticed that he does the same thing in his debates with other Protestants. One of his pet issues is a crusade against KJV Onlyism. In his arguments against the KJV Onlyists, he has resorted to just flat out making stuff up. He wrote a book about KJV Onlyism in which he asserts that there are Onlyists who hold that the KJV is infallible, there are those who think that the KJV is a brand new revelation direct from God, there are those who think the Bible manuscripts in the original languages should be 'corrected' based on whether they agree with the KJV. All of these assertions are absolutely correct, there are indeed people who hold all of those positions.

But then he goes too far, claiming that there are those who hold that ancient Greek and Hebrew don't actually exist as separate languages, but that they are both identical to 17th century English. He makes this claim without citing a single person who allegedly believes this. As far as I can tell, they don't exist, and James White simply made this up out of whole cloth to make KJV Onlyists seem even more absurd than they really are. The fact that he feels the need to do that is really saying something, because I would think that KJV Onlyism is already so absurd that it is practically self refuting. Why does James White feel the need to exaggerate the insanity of his opponents views? What is he, insecure about the quality of his arguments?

There may be Protestants out there that make strong arguments against Catholic belief, but James White isn't one of them.


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 Post subject: Re: Sounds like Trent Horn did well against James White
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:24 pm 
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Maybe that's why Sungesis was being so aggressive in his debate with White then.
I really don't recall too much of White's mannerisms during that debate. But I do remember thinking Sungenis was being aggressive.

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 Post subject: Re: Sounds like Trent Horn did well against James White
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:06 pm 
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To be honest, I don't se much value in debates. You don't really learn much, and since the emphasis tends to be on 'winning' the facts tend to be obscured in favor of grandstanding and logical fallacies. As the cliché goes 'they generate more heat than light.'

It is always better to discuss things in a forum that doesn't require anyone winning or losing.


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 Post subject: Re: Sounds like Trent Horn did well against James White
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:41 pm 
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Doom wrote:
To be honest, I don't se much value in debates. You don't really learn much, and since the emphasis tends to be on 'winning' the facts tend to be obscured in favor of grandstanding and logical fallacies. As the cliché goes 'they generate more heat than light.'

It is always better to discuss things in a forum that doesn't require anyone winning or losing.


I prefer "friendly" debates. I watched one on YouTube between Peter Kreeft and some other guy (who was once a student of Kreeft) and they sat there and exchanged differing views in a scholarly way.

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 Post subject: Re: Sounds like Trent Horn did well against James White
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:05 pm 
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Doom wrote:
To be honest, I don't se much value in debates. You don't really learn much, and since the emphasis tends to be on 'winning' the facts tend to be obscured in favor of grandstanding and logical fallacies. As the cliché goes 'they generate more heat than light.'

It is always better to discuss things in a forum that doesn't require anyone winning or losing.



Isn't it also true that one need not the truth to win a debate, but simply be more skilled at the art of debate...?

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 Post subject: Re: Sounds like Trent Horn did well against James White
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:06 am 
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Indeed, another problem is that being good at debates requires thinking on your feet, but when you are making a spontaneous answer, you may not be able to give the best answer. It is characteristic of people who know a lot of stuff that it takes to takes time to think of a good answer to a hard question.

You can't really judge a person's knowledge, and you certainly can't judge the strength of his position based on how quickly it takes him to come up with an answer to a really tough question.

There's a difference between the stuff that one knows and the stuff that one can instantly and spontaneously recall in the spur of the moment in the middle of a debate.

It's a bit like judging how rich someone is on the basis of how much money he carries in his wallet.

I am hardly as rich as Bill Gates, but I bet that if you catch me at the right time that I might have more money in my wallet than he does.

If you catch me when I am on the way to an auto dealership to buy a new car, I will likely have several thousands of dollars of cash on my person, because if you can pay in cash, you'll get a much better deal.

But I doubt that Bill Gates ever carries thousands of dollars in his wallet.

Another issue is the time limit of a debate. One two-minute attack made by James White may require a rebuttal that is several hours long. And yet, in the context of a debate, you aren't going to have several hours to give your answer.

In the same way, an erudite person like Father Pacwa is almost certainly not going to be able to spontaneously come up with a three-hour explanation of apostolic succession to respond to a James White attack in a debate, but it would be wrong to conclude that James White must know more about Church history of the Fathers of the Church than Father Pacwa.


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 Post subject: Re: Sounds like Trent Horn did well against James White
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:14 am 
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Doom wrote:
Indeed, another problem is that being good at debates requires thinking on your feet, but when you are making a spontaneous answer, you may not be able to give the best answer. It is characteristic of people who know a lot of stuff that it takes to takes time to think of a good answer to a hard question.

You can't really judge a person's knowledge, and you certainly can't judge the strength of his position based on how quickly it takes him to come up with an answer to a really tough question.

There's a difference between the stuff that one knows and the stuff that one can instantly and spontaneously recall in the spur of the moment in the middle of a debate.

It's a bit like judging how rich someone is on the basis of how much money he carries in his wallet.

I am hardly as rich as Bill Gates, but I bet that if you catch me at the right time that I might have more money in my wallet than he does.

If you catch me when I am on the way to an auto dealership to buy a new car, I will likely have several thousands of dollars of cash on my person, because if you can pay in cash, you'll get a much better deal.

But I doubt that Bill Gates ever carries thousands of dollars in his wallet.

Another issue is the time limit of a debate. One two-minute attack made by James White may require a rebuttal that is several hours long. And yet, in the context of a debate, you aren't going to have several hours to give your answer.

In the same way, an erudite person like Father Pacwa is almost certainly not going to be able to spontaneously come up with a three-hour explanation of apostolic succession to respond to a James White attack in a debate, but it would be wrong to conclude that James White must know more about Church history of the Fathers of the Church than Father Pacwa.


I agree with Doom.

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 Post subject: Re: Sounds like Trent Horn did well against James White
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:41 pm 
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p.falk wrote:
I've heard White's name mentioned as quite a formidable opponent of Catholicism.
Well, I've never been especially impressed by him.

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 Post subject: Re: Sounds like Trent Horn did well against James White
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:22 pm 
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Calvinist reformed should just be Catholic. Anyone that separates sanctification from Salvation and still says you must be sanctified in any way at all to be saved, or whether sanctification serves as some kind of "proof" for salvation, is contradicting themselves.

They're eIther completely non dependent on one another, or they are intimately bound together. I believe they are bound together, not the same but always parallel to one another, thus, I'm Catholic.

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